I support police, BUT there IS a police problem
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Mustangride1.
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- June 25, 2021 at 4:12 am #229946
I support police but not blindly so. There is indeed a police problem. HOWEVER, it has NOTHING to do with race.
Bad things do happen in police interactions. And I believe too often.
What’s the problem?
One word. Training.
I think the average police officer needs more training before they are cut loose on the road.
Not only will this automatically further vet people but it will equip them to be handle more situations so less bad things happen.
But lets not fool ourselves. This is a very dangerous and very difficult job. Bad things will happen from time to time regardless. My point is simply that more dedicated training will help drop the severity and frequency of bad interactions significantly.
June 25, 2021 at 7:33 am #229954Training is not the issue! All the training in the world is not going to stop and ASSHOLE on a Power-trip from abusing the authority he/she has. The problem is when reports of that abuse even when seen on camera or multiple reports the (protect our own) mentality kicks in, the departments refuse to terminate the officer.
Their “Qualified Immunity” status needs to be removed, If it was not lead by “Democrats” it would be, and one I have heard from people who support both the major parties say should be eliminated. Do police need some form of protections to do their job to keep from being sued every day of the week and 5 times on Sunday? YES.
But under the current “Qualified Immunity” rulings, they are overly protected, giving them protections no other citizen could dream of. No Government Official should ever be given such “Immunity” and that applies to politicians, If a civilian can be sued or arrested for their action, so should the Government Official.
That is only one small piece to the problem, Laws need to stop being perverted, twisted and distorted by Lawyers, The law should be clearly written so a 3rd grader can understand it and be a “dead document” meaning it says what it means and means what it says and does not “live/evolve” as time goes on. Judges need to stop using the bench for activist agenda, making rulings that set precedent that clearly is against the law as written because that judge did not like it. There is a Lot of problems that need to be addressed but Training is not the issue, that is a talking point.
Now comes the question I ask everyone who says training is the problem. Have you been through the training and the continueing education and training required by departments?
June 25, 2021 at 7:47 am #229956First off, I did not mean at all to state this was the only issue, just the most pressing one (and possibly the easiest to solve). There are no large societal issues that come down to just one problem, life is more complex than that.
Also, we will have to agree to disagree sort of. Yes, all the immunity and over protection IS an issue. But if officers are trained better and the amount of bad interactions is dramatically reduced that shenanigans does not even come into play.
And to answer your question no I have not been through the training directly. HOWEVER, I did work for a police force for several years so I am very educated in what I am speaking about.
Now, another issue you allude to is the jacka$$ (or does not belong on a police force) problem. You do have a certain percentage of folks who are just looking to feel better about themselves or just enjoy abusing power or are just not built for it. That percentage depends on at what level we are speaking about. Local PDs and Sheriff’s Offices are basically in the situation where they take what they can get and will take in people so long as they are not criminals. At that level probably 25%+ are bungholes. Once you go higher say at the state level and beyond where education and experience is required that percentage drops dramatically.
And to add to that, most of the shenanigans you see on TV happens at the local level where the percentage of dingdongs is high.
June 25, 2021 at 9:20 am #229972Cultural normals also must change, including the media.
Having a generation of people growing up listening to songs about police violence and the need to kill a pig is just as bad if not worse than the few bad apples within law enforcement. And those bad apples should be BANNED from serving in other police forces. But we see them just moving from one city to the next when it is clear those few don’t belong in a police uniform.
Gang violence kills more black on black than have any law enforcement.
The media celebrates criminals while demonizing the good men and women who risk their lives every day and night protecting law abinding citizens.
More should be spend on mental health programs, to prevent sickos from going on mass shooting spreads.
More has to be done in the court system to prevent criminals from going back onto the street to rob and kill again.
Guns should be taken from the hands of criminals and taken off the streets, and NOT from law abinding citizens.
The places with the harshest gun control laws ALSO has the highest gun violence, as the criminals who get their gun illegally know their potential victims are defenseless.
The immunity should STAY for police officers. Having families of the criminals suing for millions of dollars because their criminal offspring can no longer terrorize the community is NUTS. I say the families and insurance companies of all the business and lives these criminals affected should then SUE the hole CRAP out of the criminals and their families for all the pain and suffering and damage they CAUSED.
But so long as people do NOT respect other people, their lives, their property, their liberty, do not fear the law and the justice system, criminal violence and crime will continue.
June 25, 2021 at 10:25 am #229977That point about mental health is an excellent one (not to downplay anything else you said).
Since mental health institutions were closed to save money and so big pharma AND physiatrists could make loads of cash (look it up, psychiatry was under attack at the time) it has fallen on the justice system to care for the mentally ill and that is so wrong it should be criminal.
THAT is one of the big reasons for the mental health crisis.
I once knew a man that had a brother. When his brother was off his meds he was a literal danger to himself and others. When this man once called the police and said hey my brother is off his medication he is going to do something bad, the police response was, well call us if he does because only then can we help.
And that is the sad situation the police and people with deep mental issues are in.
June 25, 2021 at 1:50 pm #229995It’s not a police problem
June 25, 2021 at 2:49 pm #230001@Loken then what kind of problem is it?
June 25, 2021 at 5:05 pm #230006Societal issues.
June 25, 2021 at 5:20 pm #230010It is not a training problem… As I said they go through tons of it before getting on the force, plus training in the field before they become a full on officer (patrol by themselves) and then continueing training through their career.
TRAINING is nothing more than a talking point.
There are just shy of 700,000 thousand officers on active duty in the US. There were only 1126 Officer involved shootings in 2020, Even with the “summer of peace and tranquility” where officer could easily been justified in shooting far more, only 1126. If training DID NOT WORK, then the death toll and abuse toll would be much much higher.
Only 16 times in 2020 were the officers charged, the rest were not. In fact Grand Juries were called in on over 300 cases, if you know anythign about a Grand Jury a good lawyer could get them to find enough evidence to put a ham sandwich on trial.
But, OF THE 1126 Officer involved fatalities
81 were (Unarmed)
66 tried to use a vehicle as a weapon
180 had a knife
667 had a gun
60 some other type of weapon
72 had a weapon not listedTraining is NOT the problem, Training kept those officer that were being constantly assaulted in 2020 from beating the shit out of people who really needed it, It kept them from firing on people when they were being assaulted with deadly weapons. If a person is coming at a average person with a bat or brick etc, they the Average Joe is within his right to defend himself/herself with deadly force.
1st, Lets just open the Box. If People would do as ORDERED, aka a lawful command, and did what the officers said, and let their attorneys deal with it later we would have next to no “News worthy” office interactions.
2nd, Isn’t it just a little odd the vast majority of problems you read about or see in the media geared toward on specific race?
3rd Isnt it interesting the vast majority are for a criminal complaint triggering the officer interaction? or criminal act and yes even running a red light is a criminal interaction, minor but a crime.The problem is CRIMINALS or people being STUPID and not following lawful commands. It is simple, Cop gives you a command simply follow the orders and you will live through it. Doing anything else and your odds of getting through the interaction unscathed decreases dramatically.
After the incident for god sake FOIA the body-cam, file a complaint, sue the hell out of them. And use a tool most people do not. File a Criminal Complaint with the State Attorney General and the DOJ if you believe a Civil Liberty Violation has happened. But you have to live through the encounter to be the one filing and reporting. There is NO Justice for a dead-person, your ass is already dead, Justice is you seeing the bad officer fired and or arrested as well for committing a crime against you.
June 26, 2021 at 5:14 am #230076Basically everything people are saying here is right but it’s not completely black and white is the issue, there is nuance. Let me explain.
–Problem 1–Societal Issues
This is true in that the Justice System ONLY normally gets involved once a crime is committed. In most instances it is not that there is not enough police (because they don’t really prevent crime they react to it) it’s that we have a morality issue. Ultimately we have a failure in society where you have people willing to commit crime and do bad things to one another. It is a social ill.–Problem 2–Mental Health
The situation where Police are the thin line between people who have mental problems and normal everyday folks is an issue. Police are not normally trained or equipped for this nor should they be. Bring mental hospitals back. Yes they cost money but in the long run it is cheaper to have them.–Problem 3–Training
MustangRide1 says they get plenty of training. This is true at the federal and state levels. This is most certainly NOT true at the county and local levels. I have seen that with my own eyes. They go to 1 training that is several weeks long and then they get a gun and a badge and hit the street. If you are a hard working officer you can seek more training and become really good at what you do (and many do) but you have a good number that do not. And as far as I can tell most of the problems that is had with police where things go bad are at the local and county level. The state and local guys need more training. Again, I have experienced and witnessed this I am not talking out of my butt.June 26, 2021 at 7:13 am #230079To your first statement above: Crime is as old as Adam and Eve, it is not a social issue it is a PERSONAL issue. Society is not forcing you to commit a crime. That is squarely on the shoulders of the person committing the offense. Do Not blame society, that is clearly a political talking point.
No amount of training is going to solve societies problems, just as no amount of training will solve a criminals desire to commit a crime.
To the second, yes officers as a rule are not trained to handle Mental Issues, they are given some basics what to look for, problem is many of those same symptoms manifest in “controlled substance abuse” as well. The officer is there responding to a “call for service” he/she can only go off “presumed situation” based on what a “normal rational person” would act like.
No amount of training is going to help unless you can have a rational conversation with the subject, and if they are violent then force will need to be used to detain them until it can be established if it is a “Mental Illness or Drug Abuse” Police do not have the luxury of just walking away from someone acting crazy or harmful to others. At times those interaction end in a fatality.However as sited above, it is very rare especially when you look at the millions of calls for service they respond to yearly.
Again the very few interactions that end badly, are more proof that the training is working!
Finally to the third:
I know many Officers who are currently on the force at the Local level. They attend classes “Training” several times per year from multiple agencies across the country. LAPD, Chicago, Small town America etc. I had to maintain mine as well which meant classes some were a few days others were spreed out over several weeks.Could there be small departments who require far less? Sure. Those would be the exception to the rule….. Also last I checked, and I will later today to verify, All 50 states required some form of continuing education/training to maintain the officers credentials. I will double check on that as its been years. I do know it is for My local SO and PD, as I am still friends with many of the officer and have talked to them about it.
June 26, 2021 at 9:02 am #230084Your experiences are different than mine. We will just have to agree to disagree.
June 26, 2021 at 11:18 am #230097Speaking from an outside perspective, it seems to be a problem that is bit unique to the USA. Compared to say, the UK police, the US police are very militarized and will sometimes treat suspects as though they’re potential terrorists. In the UK, the police are essentially civilians with a badge, and you’re expected to co-operate with them to a point. We do have armed response units, but it’s very rare that they’re actually used. Compare that to, say, US SWAT teams, where someone could get “SWATTED” (same as doxxing but sending a SWAT to a person’s address in the hopes of getting them arrested or even killed).
…Not trying to say the UK police of today are the model to follow, mind you, especially now in how they pander to political correctness. I’m just pointing out the comparison because it’s worth noting that the current state of US police isn’t how they always were (nor should it be the norm), and it seems to be a recent development over the last few decades since Bill Clinton essentially legislated it.
June 26, 2021 at 11:54 am #230105I agree with the militarized thought process. I want to say (going by memory) that started in the 90’s, so Bill Clinton sounds about right.
I do think that is an issue as well but a smaller one than the others. Many a motto for a police dept is “Protect and Serve”. But sometimes they “Control and Dominate” instead. But with that said, I think it’s a fine line to walk.
As far as the UK police, the one time I was there I did not have to interact with them. But anytime I have seen them on TV I always thought they seemed somewhat ill-equipped for many situations (but that’s TV). I do think the UK police seem more worried about political propaganda than anything else.
So if we say the UK police are a little too soft and the US police overly hard. I think somewhere in between is where they should maybe be.
But let’s be honest, it’s a hard job no matter where you are from.
June 26, 2021 at 12:32 pm #230111The police have had thier hands tied in some situations, they’ve let certain things go on with fear of the political backlash or community uproar.
It’s sad how the minority can control a country!
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