Proverbs 10

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December 19, 2023 at 8:35 am #310864
Audie
I want to start making the name of this discussion topic a bit less than reality, and look at a couple of proverbs from chapter 11.
10 When it goes well with the righteous, the city rejoices, and when the wicked perish there are shouts of gladness.
11 By the blessing of the upright a city is exalted, but by the mouth of the wicked it is overthrown.
I’d guess that the city Solomon refers to in these verses would be Jerusalem, but I think the proverbs could also be applicable to any city. I’d also guess that when he refers to the city being in good shape, then that should also mean that nation as a whole is in good shape.
If I look at these proverbs in that way, then look at the US and its cities, I’ll admit I don’t find much reason to hope.
It seems like almost all of the major cities in the US are sick. They are run by people whose aim is not to rule well so that things will go well for the righteous, but to do everything wrong, to reward the criminals while the common people are victims of those criminals, to try to normalize sexual perversions while degrading the family, to take away freedoms from the people.
To put it in the language of verse 11, the righteous cannot bless these cities that have become havens of perversion, crime, corruption, and incompetence; instead, the words spoke by these wicked people who have been put in charge of our cities are overthrowing those cities. And as the cities to, so will eventually go the nation.
December 24, 2023 at 3:17 pm #311036
Vknid
Moderator
If I look at these proverbs in that way, then look at the US and its cities, I’ll admit I don’t find much reason to hope.

The people who wish to rule you do want you to think there is no reason to struggle. There is always hope.
Hope is not action nor it is tangible in itself. But it is a reason for motivation and possibly a call to action. And that is why they want everyone void of it.
Hope breeds action, apathy promotes submission.
December 24, 2023 at 10:45 pm #311041
Audie
I have every hope that the plans and schemes of the godless can do nothing but fail, because by not reckoning with their Creator, they are not able to deal with reality. But I also think that one thing biblical prophecy about the end of the age tells us is that man’s rebellion against God is so strong that man would sooner follows paths they know will lead to Hell than accept even a freely offered gift from God. “This is the condemnation, that light has come into the world, and men love darkness rather than light, because their deeds are evil”, that’s a verse from John 1.
I have every hope that some day the world will be better, at the time when Christ Himself will return to deal justice to mankind and to set things right. But I also think that things will get much worse, that man will grow worse and worse, that man’s sinful nature will reach its full flower, before that time.
December 25, 2023 at 5:47 am #311051
Vknid
Moderator
Well ultimately all plans of evil will fail as eventually the Lord returns.
But we should understand this is a time which we cannot discern until the very end is near. Sure, we can guess and say we are in the last days but we really don’t know because we aren’t supposed to.
“But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,[f] but only the Father.” –Matthew 24:36
Matthew 24 lays it out from the mouth of Jesus what it will look like and for me there are some indications of time frame.
“Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. “
In my mind this indicates a world that is globally connected. Otherwise how could all nations act in unison as they do now where oligarchs pull the strings of “leaders” the world over. This is why many of the societal cancers are all over the west in the same way at the same time. It is not organic and it is not an accident.
Obviously God decides when it’s over. But I think he has given humans the power of choice (collectively) as to when that is.
This is why I have hope. If we can make society better, if we can melt the hard hearts and change selfishness for actual caring we can stave off the end I do believe. I tend to think this happened during WW2. But you have to keep in mind the world altering events required for that to be the case.
Many people think that this slide into evil is just how it goes. They think it is inevitable and trying to resist it is useless. I am certain Satan would want people to believe just that.
The west and other parts of the world has slid into rampant sin and selfishness. But I don’t think this was organic. Maybe it started that way but it’s been heavily encouraged, pushed and propagandized. And just as it took decades to push us where we are, so would a societal antidote to that. And if evil is willing to be that determined and steadfast then good should be as well. To give up and submit is to allow evil to win which must have some sin attached to it.
But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. 2People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, 4treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God— 5having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with such people. –2 Timothy 3
December 30, 2023 at 8:59 am #311174
Audie
If Satan is the one who wants us to believe that mankind’s slide into evil is inevitable, then why was it that God was the one has warned us about it? I think a case could be made that it is evil powers, both spiritual and human, who have filled men’s heads with the ideas of man-made utopias and with “progressive” social notions.
One example would be creation/evolution. In the biblical view of Creation, man started out in a good place, paradise, and fell from it by rebellion and sin, and over time sin has affected and degraded man more and more. In Evolution, we began in the mire and muck, and by happenstance and chance we’ve progressed to whatever we are now, and we will continue to progress in the future.
Most of the perversions being pushed on us these days are supported by the idea that they are “progress”, that we are somehow becoming better people because we let small children decide for themselves to take hormone blockers, or because we let 50 year old men pretend to little girls so they can use girl’s lockers rooms and swim in their competitions.
There is a peculiar part to God’s calling to both Isaiah and Jeremiah, that He says that the prophets will speak, but the people will not listen. God was telling them that by how we might judge success and failure, the prophets would fail, but they were to give God’s messages and warnings, anyway.
December 30, 2023 at 10:16 am #311175
Vknid
Moderator
If Satan is the one who wants us to believe that mankind’s slide into evil is inevitable, then why was it that God was the one has warned us about it? I think a case could be made that it is evil powers, both spiritual and human, who have filled men’s heads with the ideas of man-made utopias and with “progressive” social notions.
Well first off, God has never tried to fool us. He has always told us what the situation was and is.
And you are conflating puppets with puppet-masters. The puppets on the street do believe in the utopias and in general because they are lied to by the puppet-masters. The puppet-masters talk utopia but they know full well it is a lie. They offer a “paradise” that cannot possibly exist but instead they give you enslavement and that is fully intentional.
One example would be creation/evolution. In the biblical view of Creation, man started out in a good place, paradise, and fell from it by rebellion and sin, and over time sin has affected and degraded man more and more. In Evolution, we began in the mire and muck, and by happenstance and chance we’ve progressed to whatever we are now, and we will continue to progress in the future.
Those are 2 views. I have always thought both things were true. The Bible says we were put here by God as we are part of his plan. Evolution does not contradict that as the Bible does not say how it was done.
“For dust you are and to dust you shall return” (Genesis 3:19) — I would call that scientifically true and not some sort of magic. God’s ways are higher than ours but some seem to expect magic and we can understand any of it then that must mean there is no God. The same people who would assume the rock formations off the coast of Japan had to be manmade https://www.news.com.au/travel/destinations/asia/japans-atlantis-the-unsolved-underwater-mystery/news-story/3ef525273aecf8e9774110e961b2f6cd would tell you the entire universe happened through billions of years of happy accidents. Cognitive dissonance.
Most of the perversions being pushed on us these days are supported by the idea that they are “progress”
I think most of the liberal stuff started out with that chant but for years it’s gone from an ask for progress to a forceful demand because this whatever it is , is a human right. And yes I read saw a video this morning saying misgendering violates human rights. It’s funny to me everything is a “human right” except for not being murdered by your own mother before you are born. That hurts my heart to think about. Most even grown ass men right now would tear up a little or feel awful based on words from their mother. Imagine the thought of your mother deciding you were inconvenient so killed you in your sleep.
There is a peculiar part to God’s calling to both Isaiah and Jeremiah, that He says that the prophets will speak, but the people will not listen. God was telling them that by how we might judge success and failure, the prophets would fail, but they were to give God’s messages and warnings, anyway.
Well that seems like what I would expect. The Bible is chocked full of letting us know what will happen. God has kept no secrets from us nor tried to fool us. That is what Satan does.
And everyone fails, as humans that is baked in. To give into that is evil and or sin. But to constantly rail against the flesh and human tendencies so as to follow God is what is holy. No one walks the path without stumbling many times. The whole point is that you make yourself get up, dust yourself off, and keep walking. And I firmly believe that while “small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life” there is not just 1 path there. You cannot convince me there is “one true religion”. I have a good friend that is a JW and we go round and round on that one. But the thought that a religion is what gets you to God or doing the right traditions as if God is in Heaven with a huge checklist is silly in my mind. Our search for the “small gate” is a personal one. Your priest, pastor, rabi is not responsible for your soul. You are. At judgement when we personally face God, it won’t be your religious leaders on trial.
This is great conversation man I really appreciate.
- This reply was modified 10 months, 3 weeks ago by Vknid.
January 11, 2024 at 9:00 am #311554
Audie
31 The mouth of the righteous brings forth wisdom, but the perverse tongue will be cut off.
32 The lips of the righteous know what is acceptable, but the mouth of the wicked, what is perverse.
We in the US know how foul our political process is, yet we still continue to play by its rules.
We know our politics is more a popularity contest than it is a sober-minded attempt to put righteous and competent people into positions they can do good. We know our politicians are liars, we know their main concern is their own power and benefits, we know they see us mostly as suckers to be exploited. Knowing this, should we be surprised when we continually have the same problems and the same issues cycle after cycle, and year after year?
We can blame politicians, and they certainly have their share of the blame, but politicians are merely the fruit of the seeds that we the voters have sown. We are the ones who have chosen style or substance. We are the ones who election after election put the same kinds of people back into offices, knowing they will only make matters worse and worse.
Where is wisdom in all of our politics?
Where is anyone who is truly wise is all our posing and posturing?
Can a people who are essentially godless understand that “The fear of the Lord of the beginning of wisdom”?
Is there any hope that we voters would vote for a man who would speak wisdom to us, whose words may be hard and even harsh but are still true? Or will we continue to make liars and panderers our leaders?
January 16, 2024 at 3:31 pm #311769
Audie
6 Blessings are on the head of the righteous, but the mouth of the wicked conceals violence.
7 The memory of the righteous is a blessing, but the name of the wicked will rot.
I like the internet. I’m not a fan of internet-bashing. If someone thinks they need to “fast from social media”, that’s fine, that’s their business, but there are times when those who encourage such things treat it like a form of virtue-signaling. For my part, I consider the internet to be mostly a positive for me. I can play chess on a few different sites, I’ve gotten into debates and learned a few things, I can watch TV and movies and buy books I want to read, I can send e-mails to people who are far away. When I was on Facebook, before 2020 showed how political the site itself was, I was part of a few different groups that I really enjoyed.
One thing I like about the internet is that it’s become harder and harder for the disreputable side of many organization to stay hidden.
Not so long ago, I liked Sovereign Grace Ministries. I’ve never been to any of their churches, as they haven’t had one near my middle-of-nowhere podunk town, but I do have a couple of their “Together For The Gospel” hymn recordings. I like them, they sang some good hymns.
Over in the Music section of this site, I started a thread sharing links to some songs I’ve written, church music. This coming summer, Sovereign Grace is going to have a worship conference at a city a couple of hours away, and I was giving serious thought to attending it and seeing if someone there might find my songs interesting.
I’d had some inkling a few years ago that there were some scandals in Sovereign Grace, and even made brief mention of it in one book I wrote. The memory of that kept knocking at my mind when I considered this conference, and with a bit of time on my hands I looked into it more than I had before.
The end result was, it made me to not want to have anything to do with them.
SGM Survivors: The Stories…
SEX ABUSE: C. J. MAHANEY’S SOVEREIGN GRACE AND DIANE LANGBERG’S PCA…
A Reflection on Sovereign Grace Ministries in the Midst of a Sea Change Regarding Sexual Abuse
One of the hardest aspect of this is that there have been times I’ve wanted to put Sovereign Grace in the category of the “good guys”, as opposed to some of the more high-profile church-organizations out there, such a Hillsong or Bethel Redding or the seeker-sensitive megachurches. Like I said before, I listened to the hymns sung at their conferences, and I liked them a lot. They seemed doctrinally solid, as opposed to the loonier megachurches.
It’s easy to look at society and politics and wonder where the “good guys” really are, I almost expect that; to look at the church and ask that same question is much more bothersome, even disturbing.
But as distasteful as it may be, I’m glad the internet is here to tell us about these things. It’s better to know these things, then to continue to respect people who are nothing more than white-washed tombs.
By their mouths and their attempts to cover up these sexual scandals and silence victims and their families, Soverign Grace has shown that they actually conceal violence. They would rather look good than to be holy and just. Let their name rot away. For what it’s worth, I can put no blessing on the heads of such people.
January 16, 2024 at 4:51 pm #311772
Vknid
Moderator
It’s easy to look at society and politics and wonder where the “good guys” really are, I almost expect that; to look at the church and ask that same question is much more bothersome, even disturbing.
There are obviously very definable differences between good and evil. But 99.9% of the people in the world are some mix of both. So if you are looking for people who are perfect, without “scars” or skeletons then you are never going to find them. They functionally don’t exist. We all have to just do the best we can everyday.
I am not saying sexual abuse or any thing like it are OK. But you are writing off an entire organization of people (I am entirely unfamiliar with these folks) because of the evil actions of probably a few. That means that you are ignoring whatever good works they might have done because there are some bad people within. If that’s how you are going to play it, you might as well write off every group you can possibly think of.
I really dislike this through process where people see a bad apple in a barrel and then toss the whole barrel. You know who does that quite frequently? People looking for reasons not to believe. They will often find someone who is clergy or perceived as “holy” and when that person missteps they say well there you go. Holiness and goodness is just a myth, look at these flawed people saying they love God, what rubbish that is not real.
I remember years ago seeing a documentary about a pastor in a small town that had fallen on hard times. He was married with kids and he tried very hard to help the homeless in the town. And he went out of his way, preached about, raised money for them and at times even shared his own home with them. It was quite the example of selflessness and goodness towards others. Then it was found out he was gay and was hiding doing some random things with random people.
What happened? He was rebuked entirely and mocked and everyone tossed him aside. Clearly he was living with hypocrisy and sinning against God and not at all thinking of his wife and kids. But the man was doing good works. He was working hard doing what he thought was right and actually helping people. But in the end, no one cared about that, they just wanted to crucify him. And they did.
There is a line from one of my favorite westerns I always remember. It was in “Unforgiven”. (yes the title means something too)
THE KID
(trying to pull him-
self together)
Well, I gu-guess they had it…
comin’.
MUNNY
We all got it comin’, Kid.
January 17, 2024 at 9:20 am #311825
Audie
This isn’t about trying to find perfect people; this is about expecting integrity of the leadership, especially of the people who are leaders of a Christian church or network of churches, and it’s about a deep disgust when those leaders can’t even deal well when such horrid sins happen in their churches, when what is important to them is keeping things quiet because of their reputation instead of helping the victims and seeing justice done to the ones who committed such acts.
I’m not writing off SGM because of the actions of a few people; I’m writing off SGM because of a history of horrid sins, lies, and cover-ups among the people who are the leaders of the organization.
I’m not writing off all the people in SGM churches who are true believers; I’m writing off SGM and hope those people will find real churches that they can be a part of.
This isn’t tossing out a barrel of good apples because of one or two bad apples; this is looking at a barrel I thought had good fruit and seeing the worst kinds of fruit one can imagine, seeing that the “good fruit” is just a public facade meant to cover the ugly reality.
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Proverbs 10

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