Unpopular Opinion: The EU was the forerunner to Disney’s woke Star Wars

Lucas never said that the Empire had female stormtroopers.

Dalla was one of the greatest characters in the EU. And yes the Empire held her back because she was a women. AGAIN Lucas never said this bullshit.

Never played the RPG no comment.

Bastila was skirting the edge of the darkside when she made the comments you are bitching about. Also female Revan was not canon it was an bolted on addon to make more people buy the game.

Rebels was canon violating shit.

Oh for fucks sake Lucas never fucking said the EU was an alternate universe. HE OKed all of the arcs.

It’s been a long time since I’ve read any EU books or played those games, so I will defer to the information you have given. And with that being said, I don’t see the correlation you’re presenting.
A few female characters saying things like “typical man” over the expansive and numerous stories that were told is nowhere near the same as the rhetoric that has been in the Disney era.

I need to wake up more before I take this on…but man…you are so wrong. I’ll be back later.

Okay, the hamster is running on the wheel at a decent speed, and I’ve let this simmer while grinding levels on FF7 remake while listening to Az swim under the sea on Sub Nautica.

Let me say flat out, I think you are wrong in the sense that you are cherry picking the smallest of details that may look like this on the surface, but you are building your argument on superficial aspects that when you dig deeper are in fact not what you are portraying them to be…or they are not significant to the overall debate whatsoever.

Let’s unpack this.

First of all, lets start off with how the EU depicted the Empire, George Lucas has said a few times when his original films came out that the Empire is a gender neutral organisation, and that female Stormtroopers although not depicted in the movies, are not uncommon in universe, but what did the expanded universe do? it made a problem that didn’t exist by turning the Empire into the patriarchy, first of all we have the character Natasi Daala, a talented Imperial Officer who appeared in multiple EU books, that was angry because she felt like the male dominated Empire held her back.

Female stormtroopers yes or or no? Who cares. George says a lot of crazy shit over the 35 year period of Real Star Wars, and he also contradicts himself on a regular basis…we’ll come back to this…hell, I did a freaking video on it once a few months ago. So while George’s word is bible for Real Star Wars, he is also an unreliable narrator which is why we need multiple people to write the gospels to make sure we can parse what’s on point and what’s Lucas bitching and moaning…especially toward the end where he was having a bitch fit because we the fans were giving him shit.

Empire as patriarchy, so what? That is a minimal feature of its overall persona. The dominating persona of the Empire was that is was human-centric/anti non-human species. Admiral Daala was a great character who has one of the best overall arcs in the EU, and to pigeon hole her as being angry at the a male dominated system is to do her a discredit. Now, I have yet to get to the Jedi Academy Trilogy in my EU book club reread, but Daala’s other MAJOR drive when we first get to her is the fact that she is pining for Tarkin.

Remember, Tarkin WAS NOT GAY in the EU. Daala was his lover while they were working out the Death Star prototype in the Maw Cluster, and she worshiped the ground he walked on. Part of her first character arc is her desire to get revenge for his death, and, if memory serves, she hates the Remnant more for its weakness and not having the powerful Imperial ideal like Tarkin rather than it just being a patriarchy. If Tarkin has been alive and running the Empire in a post Palps world, she would have had zero complaints because he was the perfect Imperial to her.

Skipping over her appearance in Planet of Twilight, cuz I don’t fully remember her motivations in that outside of maybe revenge against Luke, we’ll come to the Fate of the Jedi Arc where she is now in charge of the Imperial Remnant as its new Grand Admiral. Daala has come full circle here and is not the the rage filled, vengeful woman she was in her youth. Not once in this arc do I remember her railing at all about anything patriarchy or about feeling victorious about now being the woman in charge. Her entire goal is stability and maintaining the Remnant as a viable galactic power, her motivation to run it like Tarkin would have….a powerful man.

Next up we have the Firebird Society, a faction that appeared in one of the board games/RPGs, a feminist fighter pilot organisation that was angry at both the Galactic Republic and the Empire because they believed that their militaries turned down qualified women for promotions in favour of less competent men.

I’m sorry, but this is inconsequential and a nothing point. Table Top RPG resources do not ever factor into hardcore lore when you are dealing with a living franchise like Star Wars at the time. This was not like Forgotten Realms or Dragonlance where table top Lore Source material came first in order to build a literary world. Star Wars Lore Tiers for Real Star Wars was always Movies—Books—Comics—Videogames—Table Top. No one knows about these chicks, no one cares about these chicks, these chicks don’t really exist. They play no role in any significant events in the main story plot, so they don’t matter and cannot be held up as an example of what you are trying to argue, IMHO.

Finally but not least, we have Knights of the Old Republic and it’s sequel, granted these are no where near as woke as modern entertainment, and most of the woke dialogue is optional, but that doesn’t change the fact that the writers had these ideas, first of all, while playing as a woman, you can insult Carth for being a man (I forgot the exact words you can use, but it’s something to the effect of “typical male” in a passive aggressive way), secondly we have Bastila, if you receive a massage from a Twilek at Davik’s compound , she calls you a “typical man” for not focusing on escaping Taris, which shows you how stupid she thinks the average man is, the next instance is more subtle, but on Tatooine, we see a man in the middle of the desert surrounding by malfunctioning robots set up by his spiteful ex wife, Bastila despite being a Jedi suggests that you abandon him upon finding out this his wife wanted him dead, a clear promotion of the female in-group preference that feminists love to blindly promote, I haven’t played much of KOTOR 2 because the downloadable Xbox live version doesn’t work properly, but if you play as a woman, you can tell a guy on Telos that you think he has a problem with women.

When was the last time you played either KotoR game? Or SWTOR? Me, I’m currently playing KotoR 1. You are WAY off.

First, you are basing your argument on throw away lines that mean absolutely nothing. Yes, I only played KotoR 1 as a FemRevan once, but Carth’s attitude is him being a dick no matter how you are playing the game. He is giving you shit CONSTANTLY since you meet, so if you are playing the game to be antagonistic towards him, you are perfectly in the right to RP being a bitch right back at him if you are playing as FemRevan. You are grasping at straws here trying to say that Role Playing dialogue choices are signs of future wokeism. Sorry, but that’s weak sauce, please come back with a thick A1.

Bastilla’s whole attitude problem is not about men…it’s based on the fact that she is a freaking narcissist and prideful, both factors that lead to her fall to the Dark Side. She thinks she is the tits pajamas, greatest thing ever because she created Force Meditation. She is a snarky bitch because 1) she is fighting her attraction to Revan, because she is struggling to be a PERFECT Jedi that does not have emotional attachments, and 2) she finds it troubling how much more powerful and adept at the Force Revan is compared to her. It’s a hit to her ego. This has nothing to do with men hating or being a feminist. She is a snarky bitch because she is intimidated by Revan, and that aspect is true whether you are Revan or FemRevan. And if you happen to have Bastilla on Tat for that moment, again..so what? This is more about the character design to show how flawed Bastilla is as a Jedi, that she is not the perfect Jedi she claims or wants to be. It’s called character depth and development, it’s not feminist bullshit. You are reaching.

If you haven’t really played KotoR 2, then I would suggest you not use it in your argument. 1) KotoR 2 should be played as Meetra Surik, because the Exile is a woman canonically, therefore, there is no debate to be had concerning whether or not she was a woke forebearer. Meetra was a devotee of Revan during the Mandalorean War, and whatever she did was because she was traumatized by the horrors of that war she felt through the Force. If you are going to reach for purchase in your argument by again pulling at random dialogue that is toss away, then you have no argument. Meetra treats all her companions equally if you play her as a canonically Light Side Jedi. If you are being a Jedi, Canderous, Atton, and Bao-dur are treated like men…not typical men. So maybe you had the choice in a Role Playing dialogue option to be a snarky bitch…it’s called RPing if you want to do it that way. That is the beauty of the entire KotoR series…you are free to be whoever you want. Therefore, you cannot use random dialogue options as so called evidence that Star Wars was destined to be woke.

So again, sorry, come back with something other than a Tofu Burger. I only eat beef.

I you think about it, there is no reason for the Empire to be sexist, in KOTOR which is set 4 thousand years before the original trilogy, we see Admiral Dodonna (presumably an ancestor of Rebel General Jan Dodonna from A New Hope), a woman in the highest level of the Republic fleet, and between then and prior many female Jedi had led troops into battle, but somehow the Empire believes that women shouldn’t be in the military? that doesn’t suit Star Wars with it’s vastly different history and exposition from ours, that’s more typical of a 1940s Army that’s recruited women for the first time in their history.

What? I mean….what? You are casting your own point of view on this without actual evidence. The Empire exists because Palpatine was a Sith who wanted to dominate the galaxy through totalitarian draconian order. That has nothing to do with if women were commanders. You are word salading here a bit.

I think that the EU writers are self hating male feminists, because the whole message behind all of this is that even in a interstellar, futuristic society with a very long history of women in various roles and professions like Star Wars, men will always hold feudalistic era beliefs about women and try to keep them down, only a feminist would have such a grim view of men.

Wow. Just…wow. What are you even talking about? Show me a single book in the EU written by Kevin J. Anderson, James Luceno, Aaron Allston, or Troy Denning where they act like that at all. These men show the utmost respect to every single character regardless of gender. You are way out there on that. I demand actual evidence, which I know there is none without twisting of the lore. Their collective portrayal of Luke, Han, and every other major male lead during the Vong Arc, the Legacy Arc, and the Fate of the Jedi Arc are nothing but respectful. Show me a single moment where Luke, Han, Jacen, Anakin, or ANY male character is denigrated and diminished. Luke’s entire character arc in Fate of the Jedi is a master class in proper respect and development of a hero at a critical juncture of trying to maintain his life’s work from falling apart.

And if you are going to try and roll out Kenth Hamner as an example, sorry, but you fail, because that is a perfect depiction of someone given the reigns of power (acting Grand Master) who was unprepared for nor capable of handling the responsibility. It’s called character depth and proper story telling. Also, you don’t get to roll out Ben Skywalker’s temporary simping for Vestara, because he was a teenage boy hungry for the booty and still dealing with the loss of his mother. His arc in FotJ is also masterful because in the end he overcomes his feelings and acts like a Jedi and realizes Vestara is a Sith through an through. No disrespect there.

Also George Lucas DID say that the EU is an alternate universe.

As I said earlier, Lucas is known to talk himself in circles and contradict himself.

This is the definitive information source for the significance and truth of relevance for the EU: https://swforce4continuity.info/defenders-expanded-universe/

That website, not an easily manipulated wiki, makes my case for me.

K, I’m done. Time for lunch.

• This reply was modified 3 years, 4 months ago by Roas.

The Galactic Empire is based of fascist regimes between the two world wars. It only makes sense that in the EU they’d be genuinely institutionally racist and maybe sexist. Granted, I think it’s a missed opportunity that they’re simply portrayed as “the bad guys” and not delve into the nuance of why anyone would actually hold those beliefs. It’d be interesting to have themes of social equality vs hierarchy and argue which system of government would be of greater benefit for galactic society, but as it is it’s otherwise simply just there and inoffensive. It’s nothing compared to how cartoonish and over-the-top the First Order are (you can loathe but respect a man of unshakable conviction like Grand Moff Tarkin, while General Hux is just this lame, screaming man-child who was obviously meant to infantilize SS officers).

@FallenOmegaStar During the Vong War, at some point some character (can’t remember who right now) does make a comparison about how if the Empire was still in existence, the Vong would not have so easily ravaged the Galaxy. The Empire, a single powerful military unit operating without questioning the orders of their single master, might have possibly curb stomped the Vong before they got too far entrenched, not to mention if their super weapons had all survived would have decimated the Vong.

yet these writers are telling us that male Imperial officers who grew up hearing stories about female Jedi Knights and women who severed as the Republic’s Military and Political leaders, want to shut women out, even though Star Wars hasn’t had such roles for women for probably at least tens of thousands of years (if ever to begin with)? ether these writers believe that men are genetically sexist no matter what society they’re in, or can’t tell the difference between a regime that’s similar to something from the early 2oth century, and something that’s stuck in the early 20th century.

Where are you getting any evidence for anything you are saying? Where is your solid evidence for any of this in the EU outside of Role Playing Dialogue lines in videogames that are intended to allow for a fully immersive experience in playing a game? This whole argument that the Empire is sexist is based on nothing tangible or concrete as far as I’ve been able to see from your points. All I see is a forced perspective to fit your narrative. You can make comparisons to history all you want, but I haven’t seen anything of note relating to OG Star Wars or the EU giving your position any sort of stability so far.

What are you talking about? None of this ever happens or is openly expressed ANYWHERE in the EU.

but if you voluntarily choose to vote for the party of critical race theory, man hating feminism, and through mental gymnastics, comparing the idea of stopping entitled women from killing their children to the idea of the government forcing men to get vasectomies, then at the very least you have to be at least somewhat biased against men, at least a little, I personally think that at least most of KOTOR’s writers believe in outdated stereotypes as promoted by the feminists and gender role traditionalists, which see the nature of the man through medieval lenses, an expendable, perverted brute who’s only value to society is as an ATM, sperm donor and forklift, and occasionally a human shield. I have little doubt that most of these Star Wars writers (both before and after Disney) have these beliefs, likely from going to these shitty Universities and listening to lectures run by Jane Fonda types from the 70s, I have no doubt that good ole Drew was told by some hack lecturer from Canada how much of a scum bag he is for just existing and needs to “atone” for the sins of every dead man from the past by sacrificing all his self interests, he probably thinks he’s privileged for being a man too, even though Disney doesn’t want him (to his credit, he isn’t a bad writer if you look past his medieval beliefs about his own gender) and hires less talented writers like Justina Ireland for diversity.

You are not wrong that universities are toxic pools of leftist bile, but I once more ask….evidence to support your position outside of how you see it? There is actual evidence that the current so called writers of Disney Star Wars are human garbage, but your casual lumping in of people who decades before worked on and with good faith showed nothing but respect to the original IP continues to be done without an ounce of evidence. Just because you feel there is a black cloud, and rightfully so, over the current custodians, to blithely cast shade on content creators without actual evidence outside of opinion, who did outstanding work for the Star Wars brand that still holds up today, simply does not hold water with me.

I cannot allow immersive videogame Role Playing Dialogue options to be submitted as such evidence, because such things are totally subjective, and in my opinion are just parts of immersive game play and mean absolutely nothing because you are not forced to say them. If you were forced to say them, then yes, but you aren’t, so the argument is void.

And I still fail to understand, outside your cherry picking and grasping of straw limbed evidence, where you even got this whole the Empire is sexist thing.

Honestly, I feel like this whole exorcise is simply to try and poke a bear to stir something up.

@TobiMcQuire You’re not telling me anything I don’t already know. I’m well aware of the long march through the institutions that has been taking place since the 60’s, but you’re not taking into account how geek culture was perceived during that time period: It was largely regarded as childish nonsense by the larger culture and you were a loser man-child if you were “into it” (this was especially true of video games). I think nerd stuff was largely left alone back then because Marxists of that time considered it beneath them. It was only when it went mainstream did they realize it could be used as a vehicle for their goals.

No, you don’t have to be actively racist to be fascist, but fascism, as a political philosophy, sees racial geopolitics as a zero-sum game where the only valid form of nationhood is comprised of an ethnic group that share the same ancestral bloodline, banding together as a single racial hegemony. It is exclusionary by its very nature and in direct opposition to Civic Nationalism. Mussolini was known to contradict himself: I wouldn’t base how he really felt on just a single quote. Chances are he wasn’t quite as convinced as Hitler on the merits of racial purity, but I think it would be mistake to interpret that as to mean he didn’t care at all about race.

Bottom line being it isn’t unreasonable to have fictional fascist regime being pro-racist in practice.

You are forgetting that the EU wasn’t written by a single author and it’s larger world-building wasn’t pre-planned. It was added to over the course of several years, and what worked stuck. If it doesn’t make sense to you for the Empire to be racist and sexist, then consider that largely to be just a writing oversight because you cannot expect every single writer involved in the giant EU project to keep track of all the nitty-gritty details..

It doesn’t really surprise me that Drew Karpyshyn is a liberal, but otherwise, damn dude, you are reaching in terms of what he must think. I know it’s easy for people like you and me to look at the Democratic party and see that they’re completely bonkers, and so anyone who supports them must be equally crazy, but you’d be amazed at how many decent people there are who don’t see it that way: They’re not red-pilled. People are very empathetic towards others and want to respect personal agency, the Left takes full advantage of that to push to their insane policies which actually destabilize societies. Most people vote for the Left because they have no clue on the psychological (or even physical) damage it actually does to people, they don’t get the long-lasting ramifications and how it isn’t sustainable in the long run.

People can’t often tell the difference between a leftist and a liberal, because the latter has no clue just how truly insidious the former really is, thanks to decades of moral confusion. But it’s an important distinction to make.

What you’re essentially doing is making mountains out of molehills. It’s total spergery to take stuff that could easily be shrugged off or ignored and then use that to completely unravel the universe to suggest it was all a prologue to what we have now and go off on these barely related political tangents. Your evidence that there was agenda pushing amounts to your own personal interpretation. At worst, it’s being very ungenerous and as partisan as the Left.